Brown-Garrett Family Annihilation

When Joycy married Bert in February of 1900, she thought she'd found a provider for her two little girls. She would never have guessed on her wedding day that the life she envisioned would end in a way that would shake up an entire town. What led up to this tragedy? Join co-hosts Monica and Olivia while they unravel history to uncover the clues to this forgotten felony.

Transcript

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What do dynamite, ghost towns, and breakfast have in common? Find out on this redone episode. of forgotten felonies! Welcome to the first episode of Forgotten Felonies. I'm Monica. And I'm Olivia. And this is the podcast where we take you back in time to look at the crimes that time forgot. So we are taking you all the way back in time to June of 1909. And for our first episode, I can't think of a better story to share than a good old family annihilation. Of course, this is a horrible, horrible story, and I always tell my students, do not try this at home. And mostly I say that because I think it's a hilarious joke. But anyway. Um. I find these cases absolutely fascinating. So let's get into this. So I give to you the case of the Garrett Brown family annihilation committed by Burt Garrett. In the unincorporated community of Markham, Oregon, which is located kind of in the Silverton area of Oregon. And it's such a small place that I couldn't even find a population listed. So Markham actually still exists today. It's still an unincorporated area, but I mean, still, there's no population listed there. Now, Markham was named for Alfred Markham. He was a pioneer who had come over in 1845 on the Oregon Trail, two years after the Oregon Trail was kicked off. And Alfred's land claim later became that unincorporated community, you know, Markham, Oregon. Now, Olivia, you did a deep dive into the families of Burt Garrett and his wife. And what did you find out about Burt? Okay, so born Bertram. But his family obviously called him Birder Birdie. His parents were Thomas and Pramilia, who were both born in Missouri, but they came over to Oregon sometime in the 1850s. We know they were living in Markham, Oregon, at least by the time they conducted the Oregon census in 1860. So, Thomas, Bert's dad, He had a big land claim donation not far outside of Markham, and he was later known as a pretty prominent pioneer in the southern Clackamas area. Fun Fact! Bert was the 13th child of 17 children. His mom, Pramilia, was 47 years old when he was born, and yet he was three years old when she died. Wait, he was three when she died, but he was the 13th of 17 kids? Doesn't that mean there were four kids born after him? And she was 50 when she died. Yeah. So... there were some stillborn children and there were some twins that, um, Looking into it all, they sadly passed away early on. So, as I said though, not all of these kids lived. Such were the times of the 1800s. Everything I've read, though, says that most of the children lived past the age of six. But Find a Grave. com actually only shows that seven siblings live to adulthood. This could possibly not be accurate. But that is what is on Find a Grave. One of his brothers. Dr. R. I. Garrett later said that Bert had contracted scarlet fever when he was a little child and he never fully recovered and that he had acted peculiar. All of his life as a result. He drifted through life without any sense of direction. Interesting. So a fun fact about scarlet fever. Scarlet fever is caused by group A streptococcus bacteria, and even though it's rare, it can affect a child's brain by causing a couple different neurological issues. And it can lead to an onset or a worsening of neuropsychiatric symptoms like OCD, anxiety, and mood swings. This happens when that strep bacteria crosses the blood-brain barrier, and it's pretty terrible and pretty scary. So scarlet fever can develop into rheumatic fever, which causes heart valve issues later in life, which is actually how my great-grandma died. Which has no relation to the Garrett family. So. I'm really glad Scarlet Fever is not. common anymore. Yeah, for sure. All right. So back to the riveting tale. Now, because of Bert's mental health problems and his lack of direction in life, he was considered the black sheep of his family. All of his siblings were actually very successful and they were really respected members of the community there in Markham, Oregon. So you know it had to have been really hard on Bert growing up. It was hard enough, you know, going through life as it is, even without contracting scarlet fever. Having those neurological and neuropsychiatric complications. just normal developmental issues, like normal struggles of growing up with multiple siblings, trying to find your own identity and your sense of self among... All of those competing personalities, all of that. And then, to be the one who truly doesn't measure up to the rest, because you actually cannot— and it's completely beyond your control. That has got to be just so hard to deal with. His mom also died when he was three, and he was the 13th child of 17. And just most of them lived past the age of six. So, I mean, how many siblings did he see die? And like. cousins and how many of his playmates, siblings, you know, I mean, can you imagine living in that era? No. I mean, how scary would it have been to not know if, like... Your kids or your schoolmates, you know, would make it through the next flu season. Every year. Like, my gosh, that would be so crazy. Now, by all accounts, it sounds like Bert was also a bit of a drifter throughout what, you know, little adulthood he did live. So he had itchy feet, so to speak. He had like a hard time settling down and wanted to constantly be on the move. And that actually caused some issues for him, like in his social life. So, according to news reports, he had, quote, used up a good farm and all his money in going from place to place. And this was, you know, by the time he died, he had used up all his money. And even marrying a woman who had two children from a previous marriage didn't convince him that he ought to just settle down. Now, speaking of his marriage, we really ought to talk about poor, sweet Joycey. So, Olivia, what did you find out about Joycey? Joyce Bethel Leathers was born December 28th of 1870 in Missouri. By 1880, the family was living in Texas, and by 1900, they were living in Junction, Oregon, which is now known as Junction City. When Joyce was 21 years old, which was in 1891, she married a man named George Brown. This was in Parker Mills, Oregon. So George was not in the best of health, but the couple, they were happy. They had two little girls, Lovilla in September of 1893, and then Gladys, 10 months later in July of 1894. On April 10th of 1895, when both of the girls were still very young. George took out a life insurance policy. He came down with a cold a couple weeks later. And eight days before his second premium was due on the life insurance policy, George sadly died of pneumonia. Two men actually came out from New York to give Joyce the $2, 000 insurance payout. So Joyce was 21 years old and she met the love of her life, George Brown. And they had two beautiful, brilliant daughters, Lovilla and then Gladys. And all was seemingly wonderful between the two of them in Hardman, Oregon, until George unexpectedly caught pneumonia and died. Bye. And as luck would have it, they'd just signed up for life insurance three weeks before. So Joyce and the girls got $2, 000 in life insurance. George died in 1896, so in 2025 dollars, that's about $75, 000, and that's not too bad. I'm sure that was a huge relief to Joyce and her girls. It would be really scary to be a homemaker with two little girls and to unexpectedly lose the breadwinner of the family. Yeah, especially then when women didn't necessarily work. Yeah, and they were really little too, weren't they? Like. like 10 months and like a year old. I mean, they were so little. So anyway, somehow, um, Joyce Brown and her two little girls made the acquaintance of Burt Garrett. And so they got married in February of 1900 and the family of four then moved to Markham, Oregon together. Now, Lavella would have been about seven at the time that they got married, and Gladys would have been about six at the time. And then about four and a half years later. Baby girl Beulah Brown was born to make them a family of five. So something. that I found out was—I am pretty sure Joyce bought the house with like the two thousand dollar life insurance policy so it was the girl's home. Which I find very interesting. I knew that it was only in her name. Because he wanted her to sell it and she said no. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, all was not well. Bert had been working in real estate for a bit, you know, trying to settle down, and he had come upon an investment opportunity. And he had approached Joycey with an idea. I wish I knew what this investment opportunity was. I could not find details. But he had suggested to Joycey that she sell the house that was in her name, and use that money to invest in this opportunity. But she refused. You know, that was, it was risky. It was risky business. You know, it wasn't a perfect opportunity. And she did by this time have those three young girls to look after. And so this really caused some marital issues between Joycey and Burke. But then on top of that, more trouble was brewing. So Bert, now in his early 30s, he was facing a decline in his mental health. He was convinced that he had a mystery illness. In early 1909, Bert had the idea that he had some kind of disease in his stomach. He was short of it. Like he could not get the thought out of his mind and it even impacted his appetite. He wasn't eating right anymore, which was impacting his weight. He went to the doctor and he insisted something was wrong with his stomach. While the doctor couldn't find anything wrong with him, so his doctor sent him to a Dr. William house over in Portland. In May of 1909, Dr. House met with Burt and saw that he was in a highly nervous state, and Burt told him he was terrified that he's going to pass this stomach disease on to his wife and young Beulah. In fact, he was avoiding even going home. because he didn't want to infect them and kill them with this horrible disease. Dr. Howes looked him over and he found no sign of illness. He's like, there's nothing wrong with you, Bert. There's nothing wrong with you. He assured him, you know, you are perfectly healthy. And he sent him home. Burt, however, was sure. He was convinced. He was positive that he was sick and he was dying. And if he were to die. What would that do to Joyce and the girls? How would they survive? He couldn't just leave them like that, right? In his mind, he would be abandoning them. What kind of man would do that? You know, it's like he's just like going just crazy with worry— What's going to happen? And, you know, so in his mind. That left him with just one option. He had to kill them. Like, he had to murder the whole family. And that, yeah, that just, it made complete sense to him. He even wrote a letter to Dr. William House explaining himself. And this letter was found later in his pocket after the deed was done. The note read, 'All I told you is so. I cannot go and leave them. So this awful crime, these innocent souls, this awful way to die, but they will not know it.' Signed, a man with a damned soul. And so it was on the morning of June 5th, 1909. Bert put his plan into action. Now, it seemed like any other morning in Markham. At around 7 a. m., Bert went into 15-year-old Gladys' room and he told her to wake up. and head downstairs because breakfast was ready. He came in twice, actually, to tell her, you know, hurry up, get your clothes on, it's time for breakfast. And then he went to the next bedroom over to wake up four and a half-year-old Beulah and carried her down to the kitchen. Gladys knew, I mean she's 15, she knew breakfast was very unlikely to be ready. Like this wasn't normal. They don't get up at 7 in the morning and eat breakfast together. She's like, what is going on? This is not something that we do. So she was not in any rush to get her clothes on and head down to breakfast. This was just weird. Like, what is he doing? You know? And so she was not in a rush, but she got up and started to get dressed. Um, and you know, she was going to go downstairs, see what was going on. So while she was putting on her clothes, her mom, Joyce, her 16-year-old sister, Lavella, and her baby sister, Beulah, they had all been successfully gathered into the kitchen downstairs. And Bert must have believed that Gladys was on her way down because he just, you know, went ahead with his plan. He was seen by two neighbors quietly sneaking along the house just outside the kitchen wall. And right outside the kitchen door, which I think was in the middle of that back wall behind the kitchen and under the steps, I believe, to that kitchen. the kitchen door. He started to dig. Now, one neighbor thought maybe he was planting something. Like, she wasn't sure what was going on. Maybe he was planting something, but... Later it was discovered that what he planted was 13 sticks of dynamite. Oh. Yeah. So the explosion. It rocked the whole little town. And here's how Bert was described by the Oregon Sunday Journal. Out in the backyard, just 75 feet from the kitchen door under which he had set the deadly blast, was found the trunk of the body of Garrett. The head was entirely missing, the arms torn and shattered, the abdomen disemboweled, the clothing smoking. That is. A way to go. Yeah. So Bert's body was thrown backwards 75 feet. His head hit a cherry tree about 20 feet back and was, you know, removed from his body at that time. And then his body continued on for the remaining 55 feet. His clothes were still smoking when people arrived at the scene. What I do... Wonder? is what the initial death moment was? Was it the initial blast? Was it hitting the tree? Oh, I'm sure it was the blast because he was right there. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. You're right. You're right. Now that suicide note was found in the breast pocket of his jacket, and it was clear that he'd been carrying it around in his pocket for quite some time, making this murder one that was planned out for a while. I also noted that his letter to the doctor was actually like beautifully written. Like, very, um... Poetic in a way. Written by a tormented soul. Yes. Very Edgar Allan Poe. Yeah. Little Beulah, just four and a half years old, was described in the newspaper as having been left quote, in atoms. Now here's another quote from the papers. This one's really heartbreaking. The body of the little girl was gathered together, a tiny hand here, a foot there, while strong men wept and women fainted. And it was so sad. I know. I know. Yeah, so Lovilla, age 16, was described in the newspapers as, quote, part of her body cut entirely away by flying timbers, retaining consciousness through it all. Now, unfortunately, she died the next day. I did read in one article that her body had actually like she had been she had been thrown. over into a woodshed. Oh. Yeah, like the whole back of the house had... kind of been blown off. Like that whole back of the house. And then every window, I read that every window in the house had blown out completely. Makes sense. Yeah. So, and then the. stove in the kitchen. had wound up like blowing, like, through. the front of the house and out of the house. Like it was like a massive, I mean, 13 sticks of dynamite. It was a massive explosion. But these were the stoves that you had to light a fire in. It's not like a gas one. Yeah, it's a big, heavy and had like shot through the front of the house. Yeah, so it was it was pretty crazy. It's honestly amazing that no one got hurt who wasn't in the family. Mm-hmm. Like neighbors. Yeah. I wonder how far apart the houses were. I mean, if. Because if he went back 75 feet. There was no house that far back, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. They must have been spaced pretty far. Now, tragically, I know that Joyce had been stuck under a bunch of rubble and they had to like kind of dig her out. Now, her legs had actually been blown off right above the knees. I did read something that her arms also were gone. So I know there were a lot of discrepancies in the newspapers. Mm-hmm. And, um, Her arms were not gone. If like looking at the autopsy stuff— just that her legs had been blown off above the knees. But they were able to use her arms to pull her out from under the rubble. Yeah, so she was in complete shock. And she also was completely unaware that her children had been injured. I did read in one article the first thing that she said when they got to her. She did ask about Beulah. Like, where's my baby? But they didn't tell her that. Beulah was dead. And so she never knew. She never found out about that. That any of them had been hurt or killed or anything and she lived a little bit over an hour— But less than two hours after the explosion and her dying wish was that she would be buried beside her first husband back in Hardman, Oregon. So yeah, she wasn't concerned. She didn't ask anything about Bert. Just her dying wish was, please send me back to Hardman. Get me out of here. Yes. I really want to be buried by George. Yeah. But when she did pass, it was very peaceful. And she was. Was oblivious to what had happened to her daughters. Now, 15-year-old Gladys, she had still been up in her bedroom. And when the explosion happened, she had been kind of thrown upwards, like into the ceiling of her room, but she was not harmed. Now, I mean, the house, you know, was obviously damaged quite a bit. She was stuck up in her room until they were able to kind of dig her out. You know, like remove timbers and everything to get to her and get her out. Um, She was in shock from things that had happened, and it took a while before she was speaking. I read. But yeah, otherwise physically she was not harmed. And she was taken in by someone in the community and she was cared for. Um, until her untimely death a year later. From cancer of a saliva gland. Yeah, so I do know. That their neighbor took her in. And she became... So after her mom died, Lavella became the person who had all the property and stuff. And then when Lovilla died, that... passed on to Gladys. And so at some point after the neighbor took her in, her uncle drove her down to Jackson County, Oregon. Which is where she passed away a year later. And she's buried down there. Mm-hmm. And. From what? I found researching. Originally, Boila la Villa and Joycee were buried in a Silverton cemetery, but also if you go on to Find a Grave and look them up. They are in Hardman, so it's a little bit of a discrepancy. So I don't know if they were, like, disinterred and moved. There's no mention of it anywhere. Right. Yeah. And we'll talk a little bit more about that. Um, So after the tragedy, they held an inquest, of course. They were like, 'What happened?' We must understand this. This is all madness. So it was found that prior to the murders, Burt had been acting very strangely. He'd been asking people about the surest and the quickest way for someone to die. And the way that he asked the question made it sound like he only wanted to kill himself? So nobody really cared. Which, I mean, you should still care. But they weren't like, oh, we ought to put a stop to this. They were just kind of like. Sounds like the guy wants to kill himself. It's just Bert. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess they would have cared if they thought he was going to be harming, you know, the wife and the kids, but yeah. Now, additionally, he had been avoiding his neighbors and other people who he normally was associating with. So apparently a friend of his from Portland had even contacted him. And said, like, hey, I've noticed, like, there's a change in you. You don't seem like your happy, normal self. And she had tried to cheer him up and said that, you know, it wasn't working. So even his good friends had noticed something was off about him and had tried to intervene. Had tried to help him. So there were some red flags, but even now, even today, when you see like a friend of yours, you know, isn't really acting like themselves, you don't think they're going to go and kill their whole family. Like that's not something your mind automatically, automatically goes to because. Who does that, you know? Mm-hmm. So. I mean, I can see why they weren't like, 'Oh my goodness, you know.' But three weeks before the murders, Burt had purchased strychnine poison. And it was discovered by someone. I don't know who, but someone had discovered, oh my gosh, he got some poison. And they removed it from him. before he could use it on anyone. And then several days before the murders, Burt borrowed a shotgun and told the owner that it was to shoot gophers. He bought eight shells filled with number seven shot, and then he exchanged them for number five shot, which was the largest size that he could get. And when his brother learned of this, his brother advised the man who loaned the gun to Bert to see that he got it back immediately. So now Bert, he no longer has a gun. He went to a store in Markham to try to buy just a bunch of gunpowder. But there wasn't any available to buy in Markham. So he went over to Mount Angel and he was able to purchase 13 sticks of dynamite over there. And that's amazing that you could just go buy dynamite. Yeah. That's, yeah, crazy. So yeah, so after that, I mean, the rest, as they say, is history. So, Monica... what kind of family annihilator would you call this because I know there are different types. Yes. All right, so familicide is the term that's used for the killing of one's own family. and Family annihilation, it can be carried out by any member of the family, but typically, in a typical case, it is done by the father. So, like 95% of the time, it's the dad that's responsible. Now, in a typical case, the family annihilator will commit suicide or at least attempt suicide after killing the family. That's the most common ending to a tragedy like this, the suicide of the offender. So, 81% of family annihilations will end with the suicide of the killer. Now, there was a study out of the UK that found that there are four types of family annihilators. The self-righteous type blames the mother for the breakdown of the family. You see this when the man kills the whole family after the mom files for divorce, for example, or is just, you know, breaking up with the man or whatever. Now, a lot of times he will actually call her to tell her what he's about to do. And tells her, you know, this is your fault. I'm going to kill the kids and blah, blah, blah, or whatever. And he wants to make it clear to her, you know, this is your punishment. This is because of you. This is because of what you're doing. And then, you know, he'll kill everybody. Now, then we have the disappointed type. When a father has like a mental idea or a picture in his mind of what. what an ideal family would look like. And then his family isn't like living up to that standard for whatever reason that can cause, you know, disappointment. And so maybe he kills the family for that reason. Then there's the anomic type, and this one's a little different. This type, the man looks at his family as a symbol of his success. Like he works really hard. He's really successful. He can provide for them like the best house. nice cars and the nice clothes and everything. And then maybe he loses his job. And suddenly, you know, he. They're going to lose their home. He can't afford the nice cars anymore or the nice clothes. And now they're going to be a symbol of his economic failure. And so, instead of having them be a billboard for his shame and failure, he just kills the whole family. And then the last type would be the paranoid type. And so this type would be. where the fathers who are being threatened by an external, external threat that might be threatening to come in and rip apart the family. So for example, the legal system or like social services is is possibly going to take the kids away or something and so, in this case, it's really crazy because they have this twisted desire to protect the family. and keep the family together. And so they kill the whole family. Like to keep them from being removed from each other. So in your mind, do you want to take a guess at what type? Burt might have been. I am gonna go with Paranoid. Oh, yeah? Do you want to say why? Yes. He was worried he was going to give them this.

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'stomach disease' he thought he had. And in the note, he said, like, 'Basically, this is why I did it. You didn't listen. Well, yeah, so. The paranoid type, there's an external threat. So basically. The, um. the sickness or whatever was, was the threat. The sickness was, was threatening to tear apart the family. So his, so that would have been, so he was the paranoid type. And so in his twisted view, he was protecting the family by killing them all. Like to keep them from being ripped apart. But also there is that little bit of the self-righteous in there because he did write the note to the doctor, basically saying. All I told you is so. Like, I told you. This is what's going on. You didn't believe me. And so this awful crime, these innocent lives. We had to die this way because you didn't listen. So yeah, he had kind of both the self-righteous type and the paranoid type. Mm-hmm. And do you think the neurological stuff from Scarlet Fever had something to do with it? Because... Didn't they call something... which we now know is schizophrenia. Yes. They called it something else. Yes, they called it dementia. And there actually was. A newspaper article where they did an interview with Dr. House. And, um, basically, because obviously, if there's a suicide note written to him, you know, um, in this, in this dead man's pocket, they're going to want to talk to, you know, Dr. House. And so he said, you know, looking back now after seeing what has happened. Now he looks back at everything and says, it's pretty clear now that he was in a state of dementia. And so... Today, dementia is different. So I had to look up, you know, Google. What did dementia mean in 1909? And sure enough. Dementia is what they call schizophrenia. It's so interesting how like the terms change over time. Mm-hmm. Oh, Bert. Bert, Bert, Bert. Yep. So also going back to the burials. Yes. Of our beloved family. They were actually buried the evening after the murders. in Miller Cemetery, which is in Silverton. And if I recall, you contacted someone who works there. Yes. So yeah, like you had said, it does say that they're buried in Hardman. But the newspapers, newspapers. com says. that Like, okay, it was all so confusing. Because she said, we want to be buried in Hardman. And the newspaper said, she's going to be buried in Hardman. Like, you know, she and the two daughters are going to be buried in Hardman. But then... The newspaper says they couldn't be buried in Hardman. You know, she can't be transferred there because the bodies could not be embalmed. And it's probably because, you know, body parts were missing. You know, they couldn't like, I don't know, seal it off. I don't know. You know, she was cut off at the knees and, you know. So, um, They couldn't transport her to Eastern Oregon, I guess. That's my guess. I don't know why they couldn't. But they said because they couldn't embalm the bodies. They couldn't send her to Hardman. So they were buried in Miller Cemetery the next day, which is the same cemetery where Bert was buried. Mm-hmm. Well, if you look on Find a Grave, there is a grave marker next to George's, but it has all three of their names on it. And so, I mean, it's unlikely that there's three full graves. There, because it's just one very tall, skinny stone with the three names, one above the other. Um, And so, anyway, I did make a phone call yesterday, actually. So, okay. Now, through all my research, Hardman, Oregon is now a legit... Ghost Town. Like it is a registered ghost town. And so the cemetery there, there's no one to call to find out records and like. You know, there's no one to call. So then I looked up who's in charge of the Miller Cemetery in Silverton. And I found a phone number and I was able to call a woman. So got in touch with her. She's lovely. Um, there's a problem though. Her map of the cemetery in Silverton is written on a box— a cereal box, like a torn piece off of a, you know, cardboard cereal box from the 1930s. And it's just written in pencil. And, um, yeah, it just goes back to the 1930s and that's it. Now, She said that back then, farmers were buying the plots. They would buy the plots and then they would just, you know, dig the grave and put people in them. So on this map that she has, the graves just have the farmer's names, a lot of them, like, because the farmer bought the plot. So on the map, I mean, the stones where people are buried have the person's name, but on this map, it just has the farmer's name because the farmer bought the plot. Hmm-hmm. They really need to update their system. Yeah. So she couldn't look at her records to see any record at all. Of, you know, like, Joyce-y. being buried there. She didn't even see Bert. Because it's 1909 and her thing goes back to 1930. So... Burt wasn't even on there. Um, so anyway, now on Find a Grave for the Miller Cemetery, it did have Bert's parents' grave with an actual location. Like it said, where the plot, like where the actual grave was. So when she called me back to say, 'I have no record of them even being here.' I said, 'Well, I know his parents are buried here and here, you know.' And she was like, 'Oh, that's very helpful.' Because he would probably be buried next to them. You know, in that same area. And so she and I assumed that Joyce and the girls would also be buried. Next to Burt if they are there still. Hmm-hmm. And so the last time I talked to her, she was going to go back to the cemetery to look and see. And then I haven't heard back from her since then. We should make a trip. Yes, because I have a feeling they're probably still there and that stone. Over in Hardman is just there, kind of as a memorial, since she couldn't be there because it costs a lot of money to you know, disinter someone and move them. Yeah, I do find it sad that Gladys... They buried her down in Jackson instead of with her siblings and mom, that was very sad to me. Yes. Sad indeed. C'est la vie. Yeah. So I do also want to point out that Bert, most likely the reason why all of this happened is because he was in his first episode of Psychosis. Mm-hmm. Um, so he, he definitely had schizophrenia. Like that's absolutely for sure. So psychosis is when you have a break from reality. And he had delusions. Definitely. That's why he thought he was, he was so certain that he had this stomach disease that was going to kill him. It was going to kill everybody. It was going to break apart the family and all of this stuff. So. Um, psychosis, you can have hallucinations where you're seeing things or you're hearing things, or it can just be these delusions, like just these. Delusional beliefs. End. First episode of Psychosis. You know, people argue over whether that means it's the very first time you ever have a psychotic break, like first time ever, ever. or if it's the whole period before you are diagnosed and treated. So there could be several times before you're diagnosed where you've had a psychotic break. You know, like maybe four or five times before someone finally takes you to the doctor. But they would say that whole period before you are diagnosed is your first episode of psychosis. FEP, they call it. But he had not been diagnosed with dementia or, you know, schizophrenia. So he was in his first episode of psychosis. And that's a very, very dangerous time. Because a person who's in their FEP, they don't know that they are sick. They don't know that it's not real. They have no reason to believe. That it's not real. So when Dr. House told him, like, 'Oh no, you're actually not sick.' Like. He had no reason to believe. That Dr. House was wrong. Because Dr. House didn't say, 'Well, actually, you have this sickness that's called schizophrenia. You are sick, but it's not your stomach. It's your head. You know what I mean?' He wasn't told that. It's... So I need to say that people who are schizophrenic, they tend not to become violent. I don't want anyone to think, 'Oh no, schizophrenic people are very dangerous and scary.' It's very unlikely that mentally ill people are going to become violent. That being said... out of all of the mental illnesses out there. People with schizophrenia are the most likely, out of all of them, to be violent. But again, it is very, very, very, very, very rare. Now. when you are looking at just schizophrenic people. and you're looking at their psychotic episodes. When they are in their first episode of psychosis, so they have never been diagnosed, never been treated, they don't know that they have a psychotic illness. They are 15. 5 times more likely to commit murder. During that first episode of psychosis, than they are at any other time in their illness for the whole rest of the time that they have a psychotic disorder. Hmm. And the reason is because. They don't know that they're sick. They don't have any reason to believe that whatever scary thing they're seeing or a scary thing they're believing or hearing or whatever isn't real. Mm-hmm. And they are reacting to environmental stimuli that we can't see. You know, we don't know what they're reacting to. We don't know what they're seeing. So it's dangerous for us. We don't know. We don't know what it is, you know? So it's, it's scary, but yeah, they're, they're. I mean, it's a scary time. It really is. And so... When they've been diagnosed. Even though later on they'll have, you know, a psychotic break and they'll still see things that are scary. Because they've been diagnosed, they still have an awareness. So they'll see the scary thing and they'll be like, 'Okay, I'm seeing things again.' It'll still be scary, but they have that awareness of... oh no, I'm seeing things again. I better call my doctor or like. Oh no, maybe I need new medication. Like, oh no, it's scary. I'm seeing things like they'll, you know, they know that they're seeing things. They know that they're sick. And so they are way 15. 5 less, I mean, 15. 5 times less likely. You know, to do something dangerous because they have that awareness. Interesting. I wonder how they would have treated it. In 1909. Like, just, oh, insane asylum. Probably. Yeah. Lobotomy. It's so sad. Yeah. So sad. Yeah. So. Yeah. Shout out to... FamilySearch. Find a grave. Ancestry. com. Newspapers. com. Newspapers. com. Follow our socials, Forgotten Felonies on Facebook and at Forgotten underscore Felonies on Instagram. Leave us a review. Send us a message. Yeah. Click on send us a text wherever you listened and streamed this. This episode. Huzzah! do do do do do. All right, until next time. Duchess, do you want to say something? That's making it in somehow.