The DeAutremont Brothers and "The Great Train Robbery" of the PNW

The last "Great Train Robbery" occurred at Tunnel 13 in the Siskiyou Pass in the little town of Ashland, Oregon. It took 4 years to hunt down the three who were responsible for the four senseless deaths that resulted that day. Who were these three men, and what drove them to commit a quadruple murder on that fateful day in October of 1923? Listen in as Monica and Olivia unpack this case and uncover the things that drove these young men to madness—and murder.

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What do trains, planes, and fastidiously clipped fingernails have in common? Stay tuned to find out on this episode of Forgotten Felonies! So welcome back to Forgotten Felonies. This is episode two. We're on a roll. So my co-host Olivia and I, we take you way back to the forgotten tales of vintage villainy that are long forgotten. So as a reminder, I am Monica. And I am Olivia. And we do love talking about these old crimes. Last time we took it back to 1909, and for this episode, we aren't going back quite so far. This time we're going back to 1923, which, I mean, that's still over. Over 100 years ago, so that's definitely a long time ago. So this crime took place in southern Oregon, but really there were some ties to, well, all over the place, which you're about to find out. So this case is insane and made some major headlines. And I can't even really say this one's... entirely forgotten because there have been books written about this case and I guarantee there are still forensic science students who read snippets about this case in their introductory textbooks. I mean, you'll see why. This case is that exciting and that groundbreaking, and it happened here where we're from, Oregon. Back in 1923. So I have shared this story with some of my former students. So, you know, any of them who have tuned in and I can almost guarantee. Promise you that you are listening. I want you to know that Olivia here is a research genius with access to far more resources than I had at my disposal at that time. So there's going to be a lot more detail included here. Even I found new information that completely changed this story in my own mind. Stuff that I call forensic psychology gold. So I'm pretty excited to share this story again. So without further ado, let's start off with a little bit of background information about the Dautremont family. So Olivia, what did you find? Thank you. So the family, the Dautremont family got started when Paul Dautremont and Isabella... got together back in Iowa, where they both were born. They had five sons all together. Their first son, Vern, was born in 1899 when the couple was 25 years old. Not super early like you might imagine. Paul and Isabella were both 26 when the twins, Roy and Ray Dautremont, were born on March 31st of 1900. Roy was born first, then Ray. He was born four years later, and then they had one more son after that. So the family moved around a lot. The twins were born in Iowa. They were living in Colorado when the twins were five and six. He was born in Arkansas, and they just... pretty much moved all over the place. I also found that the parents, Paul and Isabella, got divorced. They had gotten married in 1897, and they found that they were still married in the 1910 census, but in 1915, Isabella is listed as being single. Isabella had moved to New Mexico between 1915 and 1920, and then by the 1930 census, she had moved to Salem, Oregon. In 1934, she was in Los Angeles, but then, in 1935, she was back in Salem, Oregon, and she remained in Salem until her death in 1945. The father of Roy, Ray, and Hugh, had settled in Albany, Oregon, in 1921, where he worked as a barber. He had another child and eventually remarried, in that order, and he died in Eugene, Oregon, in 1953. You know, it's always really interesting to me to hear of divorces that happened that long ago. You know, I feel like I need to look that up to see like when that became mainstream and became a thing. So. Back to the story. So, as a very young man, Ray, one of the twins. So just to catch everyone up to speed, this story is basically about three of those five Dautremont brothers. So the twins, Roy and Ray, and then their brother Hugh, who was four years younger. So Ray, one of the twins. He became disillusioned with the government when he was a young adult. And I think that's pretty common for young men at that stage of life. And when I say young adult, I mean like literally like 18. So I mean... the cusp of adulthood. Okay. So, um, you know, this is when they're becoming adults, they're finding out what it's like, you know, to have to work for a living to pay taxes, you know, who likes taxes, having to vote, you know, all of all of that adulting that that goes on. And race. started to feel some kind of way about how things were going in the late, you know, 19 teens and early 1920s. So keep in mind, he was born in the year 1900. So, you know, he's 18, 19, and all of this. And World War I had just happened. Things were tumultuous, to say the least. Well, he had actually gotten involved with a group called the Industrial Workers of the World, which was, or is, better known as the Wobblies. Now, this group... had formed back in 1905 when the twins were all of just five years old. So it was pretty well established, you know, by the time he was 18 or so. so. So this group is actually still around today, and it is an international labor union that was founded in Chicago. Rather than being a union for one specific group, like a labor union of people who work in the lumber industry or a union for people who work in education, for example. It's a union for... many different trades and industries all together. So, back between 1905 and 1915, membership was booming all across the U. S., the U. K., Canada, Australia, and the Wobblies were really great at achieving their union goals. It was a powerful union that was getting things done. But there were issues with other unions who thought the Wobblies were a little too radical. And the government also thought that they were too radical and even anarchist, especially after the way things went after World War I. Now, Canada... Had actually outlawed the Industrial Workers of the World in 1918, and the United States was cracking down on the Wobblies pretty hard as well. And there was Ray Dautremont, an active member of the Industrial Workers of the World in 1919. Are they still around? They are. I looked it up and they still exist. They are still around. Yeah. So he was 19 years old, Ray was 19 years old, when he was arrested for his affiliation and his participation with the Wobblies and their anti-government activities. And he was sent to a state prison in Monroe, Washington, where he stayed for almost a year. And this stay in jail led Ray to become further disillusioned by the government. Now, prior to this, he was thinking that his efforts in the Wobblies were... going to somehow save the government from itself. Because he was thinking, you know, the government is corrupt. You know, let's fix things. Let's make things better. But then, you know, he gets sent to prison and he's like, you know what? Screw the government. This is terrible. Forget it. You know, it's not worth saving at all. So he thought it was a loss. And he might as well just become an outlaw, take whatever he could get. And also, you know, he saw that his mother was struggling financially. He saw that his father was struggling financially. was struggling, and he actually felt helpless sitting there in the prison, unable to take care of his family, and he just wanted to find a way to get rich quick. Now, while he's sitting in the prison, he met some criminals inside the prison, which, you know, a lot of prisoners do. And he was able to get some addresses for some big time gangsters in Chicago who were involved in organized crime. Now, Ray heard that he could get about $50, 000 in a bank robbery if he got involved with those guys. So Ray talked to his Twitter and brother Roy about it. And Roy said, 'That sounds good.' I'll go with you. But Ray told him, 'No, if you go, you're going to get yourself killed.' So Ray gets released from prison in 1920. And he goes alone by himself to Chicago to try to join this mafia in Chicago. Now, I don't have many details about that. Other than it didn't work out. I imagine it's because, you know, one does not simply just show up uninvited to a crime family in Chicago and ask to be, I don't know, adopted. So, pray tell, what was organized crime like in Chicago back then? Well, you know, I did look that up. Back in the early 1920s, the organized crime family in Chicago was known as the Chicago Outfitters. Fit, or the Chicago Mafia, or the Chicago Mob, or just the organization. It was an Italian-American mafia crime family that had originated in the city's South Side back in 1910. Now, Olivia, have you heard the name Al Capone before? Indeed, I have. Yeah, that was this family. Oh, no. Yeah, the very same one. So... Here comes this young 20-year-old, right, straight out of a Washington state prison to Chicago. And I mean, what did he do, right? Did he find the ass? address and just knock on the door? Did he walk up to the first Italian-looking guy in a trench coat and ask, 'Hi, are you part of the organization?' And can I rob a bank with you? Can I have $50, 000 of those dollars? I mean, you know. I can imagine Rey trying to impress them like, 'I just got out of the slammer.' I did a year of hard time. Like, 'Oh yeah?' What were you in for? And he's like, 'The wobblies.' I mean, I'm not sure like how impressed they would be, you know, trying to organize a labor strike. Like, I mean, that's... How impressive is that to the Italian mafia? Especially with a name like The Wobblies. I know. Hey, we got a wobbly over here. Like I can just, you know. Like, you coming to my home? Uninvited. A wobbly. You bring your wobbly friends, huh? You got any more of those wobblies, huh? Walking around here. Wobbling down my street. You can't be wobbling up in here, huh? Oh, boy. Ay, ay, ay, a wise guy, huh? Okay. Ugh. Anyway, so... So you think you're a wise guy. I don't know how it went, but... Yeah, so it didn't work out. And he went back home. Hey, you know, they kept him alive. That's good. Yeah. They liked his gusto. Yeah. So that's good. The bright side. I wonder if, you know, the guys in Washington at the prison were just like, 'Oh my gosh.' Haha, thinking they send him off to his death, you know? Oh my gosh. But anyway. At least he came back to Oregon. Alive. Came back. So yeah, Roy was here in Oregon because their dad was here, actually in Albany. He lived here. He was a barber. He was cutting hair here in Albany. So yeah, that didn't work out in Chicago. So after Ray joined Roy back here in Oregon, they decided that they should commit a robbery. So first they decided that they were going to rob a store in the town of Cannon Beach, Oregon, on the Oregon coast. Thanks for #HastagRock. Huh? Famous for Haystack Rock. Yeah. And I don't know why that didn't work out. What I was reading about it was they both had their guns. They got in an argument with their boss. Actually, and almost shot up their boss or something. But they didn't. And then they went to this store. They were about to rob this store and they were broke. So it was. Roy was writing this down about what happened. They were broke. They had about like 20 cents to their name and they had their guns and they were going to rob this store. And then a guy randomly walked up to them and he said, 'I'm sorry if this comes across as rude, but are you boys broke?' And he just gave them a dollar. And Roy said that this kindness was so unexpected that it really just struck him. And he never forgot that. And, I mean, the guy just gave him a buck. 1920 or 1921, like that was a really kind gesture. So anyway. They didn't rob the store. But then they headed to Florence, Oregon, and they saw the bank. And they were like, 'We should rob that bank.' And they looked at the... other towns around there and looked at those banks, but they really liked the one in Florence. And so they talked to their older brother, Vern, and they said, 'We are thinking about robbing the bank in Florence.' And Vern was like, 'You know, guys, that's a bad idea.' And so they didn't, they didn't rob the bank. Something that's interesting about that story. If you look this up, um, if you look up the story of the Dautremont brothers and everything, you will find in other places that they did attempt to rob a bank and that, as they went up to the bank, a car full of thugs drove up to the bank right in front of them and went in and robbed the bank like before they had a chance to. And. I thought that that was accurate. And so when I shared this story with my students in the past, I shared that and thought that that was accurate. But now I know that it wasn't. If you've heard me tell you that story before, I apologize. That was incorrect information. So they did think about robbing the bank in Florence and they were talked out of it by their brother. Now, um, Roy and Ray still wanted to figure out a way to get rich quick while also sticking it to the man. Like, you know, they're still mad at the government. So, meanwhile, they took a job with the Silver Falls Lumber Company located in Silverton, Oregon, and they just had to come up with a good idea. Well, in early 1923, Ray decided to take a trip from Oregon down to New Mexico to visit his mother and his younger brothers, Hugh and Jonathan. Now, Olivia, I would like you to tell our listeners what Hugh was up to in early 1923. Of course. So, as we said, Hugh was born just four years after the twins were born. So in early 1923, let's say January. The twins would not yet have been 23, and Hugh would have been roughly 19. Their parents were divorced, and Hugh had graduated high school and was living with his mom in New Mexico. That's right. Okay, so the mode of transportation when Ray was heading down to New Mexico. He happened to travel by train. He took the Southern Pacific Railroad, and while he was on the train, he got the idea that he could commit a train robbery. Because, see, trains... were robbed all the time back then. And the mail cars were always the prime target because those were the cars on the trains that carried... all the money and the gold and the valuables. And sometimes there were even Marines stationed in the mail cars because they needed that level of security for all of the valuables that were on board the train. So during that train ride in January of 1923, Ray paid very close attention to see if there were any specific locations. Along the route that would be ideal for a train robbery, Tunnel 13 in Ashland, Oregon, caught his eye. The train came to a near stop when it approached the summit of the Siskiyou Pass, and it was very intriguing. Well, 19-year-old Hugh was approached by his older and wiser brother and convinced that this was a very good idea, robbing a train's man. Car to get a massive payout and then never committing another crime ever again. So they'd never get caught because, I mean, if they got tons and tons of money, why would they need to ever commit another crime? You know, and then if they were never committing another crime, I mean, why would they ever get caught? I mean, it just sounded perfect. It was a grand plan. So after Ray got back to Oregon, he talks it over with Roy. And then Roy sent a $50 money order to Hugh from Eugene, Oregon, down to New Mexico, so that Hugh could make the trip up to Oregon. Now, Hugh was originally supposed to come that spring, but he didn't actually make it until June. Then the three brothers got down to business and they started on their plan to rob the number 13 gold special that ran from Oregon to California. Actually, during their planning, they actually rode several different trains on those tracks several different times just to scout out lots of different locations. Between Portland and Northern California, just to see if there were any other places or any other trains that would be better. But Tunnel 13... was the ideal place and the number 13 gold special was decided to be the ideal train. And they figured that train was the most likely to have a large amount of money on it. Now, meanwhile, the three of them all worked for the Silver Falls Lumber Company. They were just chopping down trees with, you know, villainous intentions in their hearts. And nobody was the wiser. Nobody had any other idea. And they did other stuff too. You know, they took time away from their scheming to take part in the county fair on July 5th of 1923. The brothers actually took first... second, and third place in the cigar smoking contest. So Roy took first place, Hugh took second, and Ray took third. And then Hugh also took second place in the greased pig contest. You know, I find it really interesting that Ray took third because he seems to be like the whole mastermind. He's the more dominant twin. Between the two. He's the one that has the ideas. Mm-hmm. I don't know. It's just him getting third was kind of... Well, I don't know, smoking cigars. I guess he didn't have much time at prison, maybe. I don't know if they allowed cigars. I think they smoke. They smoke in prison. Well, yeah, but I don't know. Who knows what is allowed? Not me. I've never been. I haven't either. Uh, let's just be clear on that. Oh, my goodness. Anyway. Anyway, the greased pig contest, though, that sounds like fun. Oh, it's sad that I actually kind of know what it is. Okay, explain. Okay, so basically... The guys are shirtless. And this is based off of like, because I've done something like this with a watermelon. Okay, so they put grease on a pig. And you're shirtless and you're trying to actually like wrestle it and catch it and hold it. But it's so slippery. That it keeps getting away. So it's literally... Just like. Greased pig. Like, who can catch it the fastest? Wow. Wow, well. Good for you. You took second place. And did your watermelon keep getting away, Olivia? Okay, so... I was in a canoe and there was a watermelon covered in Vaseline in the water and I had to jump out of the boat. Get the watermelon, put it in the boat, and then get back in the boat and then go back to shore. Wow. In the fastest amount of time. And we won. Wow, good for you. Thank you. I would beat you. Okay. All right. So. Let's talk about the train known as the number 13 gold special that ran from Oregon to California and back again. It was known to carry money and gold. in its mail car. The brothers figured that this would make a great target for their hit, so they started camping out in a little cabin down near Ashland, Oregon. The cabin was about three miles away from Tunnel 13, which was at the summit of the Siskiyou Pass. The brothers would head down to the tracks. I mean, three miles is actually pretty far if you think about it. I mean, you know, I use the treadmill quite often. Like, that is not just a short little walk. Be real. So three miles away. But yeah, so they would head down their three little mile jaunt to the tracks and just watch. The train to like, I mean, to make sure they had its routine down, like, like to know the schedule, know when it got there. To see exactly how it behaved when it approached that tunnel. So they wanted to know, because it had to do a brake check because this is at the summit. So it comes up to the top, had to check the brakes because, after it went through the tunnel, it started to go, you know, down this steep. Like, you know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, down into, like, California and all this stuff. So the brakes had to be, like, on point, right? So it would slow to a near stop. And that was perfect. That would be the perfect time for the brothers to hop on board and then, you know, climb inside and take control and do whatever it was they were planning on doing. So they just had to plan it all out and do it. They set the date for October 23, 1923. So to prepare for the heist, the brothers went to Portland in early September, and they actually bought a car. They bought a Nash automobile, and you should definitely look it up. I mean, just Google 'Nash automobile 1923'. I want one so bad. I want one so bad. They bought it just in case they needed a getaway car. Then they stole a detonator, wire, and some dynamite near Oregon City shortly after they bought the car. They already had her. The car looks... Like... an absolute heist car. I know. You know with the 101 Dalmatians? Mm-hmm. Cruella's driving the car. It looks identical to that. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's the perfect getaway car for a heist, for sure. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so anyway, they already had tons of camping supplies. They drove down to Eugene, where they bought more supplies that they were going to need. They had to fill up their you know their cash in the cabin and stuff that was in Ashland. Then they hung around their dad's house in Eugene for a few days. On September 18th of 1923, they left Eugene in their car with all of their camping gear, all their provisions, and they told their dad that they were going on a camping trip to the Puget Sound up in Washington. But they didn't go to Washington. Instead, they went south to the Siskiyou Mountains. Now, they didn't head to the cabin, though. Like I said, that was three miles. miles away from Tunnel 13. This time they set up camp much closer. So they camped in two different spots, but they were very close to the tunnel. At the first spot, they tested out their detonator. So they were like blowing stuff up. They even burned some evidence. So, I mean, they were. like, well, we will camp here. But, you know, gosh, if they were to find any of this, they could identify us. So let's burn some of this in advance. So they burned some stuff up. at a couple of their campsites that was really close to the tunnel, just, you know, hoping that they wouldn't be caught. So while they're still camping out... prior to pulling off the heist, they decided that they weren't going to use their Nash automobile after all. So they thought, well, let's return it to dad's house. Let's drop it off with dad. And so they said that Hugh, the younger brother, ought to take it to Eugene, drop it off, and then return to them. So he was supposed to. To drive it to Eugene. And then I'm not sure how he was supposed to make it back to Ashland. I could not figure that part out. But while he's driving it from their campsite to Eugene, he's still in Ashland, he hits a cow with the car. He crashes the car and he couldn't leave Ashland until the car was fixed and drivable. So it took a long time to then get the car to Eugene and then get back. So he was late getting it back. And he didn't get back to the camp to his brothers until September 30th. By the time he made it back, the twins had prepared a pretty good cache for them to hide in, even after they had robbed the train. So the plan was, after they successfully robbed the train, Ray was going to go to Eugene to get the car and then come back to Ashland to pick up Roy and Hugh, and then they'd make their getaway from there. So. On the day of October 11th, 1923, it was about noon when the brothers took their equipment to the south end of Tunnel 13. They had their detonating machine, three pack sacks, their dynamite, guns, flashlights, all the things that they needed. Their detonating machine was... wrapped in a pair of blue overalls. The dynamite was laid out about 30 feet from the entrance to the tunnel. They connected the wire and they placed the detonator. The detonating machine where they wanted it. Hugh and Roy walked down to the north entrance. Now this tunnel was about 100 yards long, so it's pretty lengthy. Ray remained at the south entrance where the dynamite and the detonating machine are located. And then Roy and Hugh are at the north end, where the train would be approaching from. So they're on like the Oregon end. So Ray was over there on the south end, just smoking cigarettes and waiting for this whole thing to go down. Roy and Hugh—we're going to board the tank of the engine when the train slowed down, because the train had to do that brake check and slow to a near stop so they'd easily be able to jump on. Now it takes a while for a train to come to a complete stop. So the engine, it was slowed way down by the time it gets to that north entrance, right? And so that's when... When Roy and Hugh, like... first climb aboard, and then they're able to climb inside. So Hugh actually got inside the cab of the engine. And then Roy made his way. He kind of climbed to the back of the engine. But he went inside and told him, you know, come to a stop. So by the time the train came to a stop, a stop— the end, like, the front of the engine was just sticking out of the south end of the tunnel, if that makes sense. So just barely coming out the engine was in California. Well, no, I mean, on the California, like... The south end of the tunnel. It wasn't in California, but that end of the tunnel. The southern end. Thank you. Yeah, so just that end was sticking through, just barely. But, I mean, the mail car and all those other cars were still inside the tunnel, if that makes sense. So just the tip of the train was sticking out. Okay, so it's important that everyone listening to this needs to have that in their head. Keep that in mind. So Hugh, by this time, he's in the cab with the engineer and the train's fireman is also in the cab with Hugh and the engineer. And then there's Ray. He's standing beside the dynamite. And now he's inside that end of the tunnel as well. So he's got the dynamite and he's standing in there. And he actually handed the dynamite up to Roy. Ray noticed that the mail clerk, who was, you know, a postal service worker who was actually inside the mail car that day, his name was Elvin Doherty. Alvin actually poked his head outside the window of the mail car. So Ray noticed this and he immediately tried to shoot him with his shotgun when he saw him stick his head out. But Ray missed. So then Elvin actually locked himself inside the mail cart, which is protocol in these sorts of situations. Now, of course, you know, this is the target. Want that mail car. And so Ray went and packed dynamite around the door of the mail car because that's how they were going to try to get the door open. Roy and Ray then went up to the engine cab, where Hugh was with the engineer and the fireman. Hugh made both of them get down on the right-hand side of the engine. The brothers made them get out the front end of the tunnel, and this was to avoid what was about to happen. Roy then went to the detonator, and he gave the handle a push, and there was a huge explosion, which killed young Elvin Doherty instantly. Inside the mail car. The tunnel then filled with smoke because, remember, the only part of the train that was sticking out of the tunnel was the very front of the engine. The mail car was still very much inside this tunnel, which was a very small tunnel. So, I mean, not much room around the train. So, anyway, the tunnel filled with smoke. Roy then took the fireman with him to try to uncouple the mail car, so to try to separate it from the car behind it. And the smoke inside the tunnel were too much for them to breathe. Then, before the brothers knew what was happening, someone emerged from the tunnel with a red light. Light. So they just saw this light coming through the smoke and they were like very surprised. They didn't realize like what was going on. Soon as they saw the figure form and saw that it was another person, they started shooting immediately, not realizing who it was. shot him with this . 45 Colt revolver, and this happened to be the train's brakeman, Charles Oren Johnson, who was coming through to see, first of all, why the train had come to a complete stop and why there had been an explosion. So Charles Oren Johnson died from his wounds. Ray ordered the train engineer, Sydney Bates, to get back in the cab and try to pull the train forward to help uncouple the mail car. They really wanted to pull the train forward. Pull that mail car out of the tunnel because there was so much smoke that, you know, they couldn't even see clearly to get at what was inside the mail car. car. So the engineer tried several times to pull the engine forward, but the wheels just kept spinning and it wouldn't pull it forward at all. Now the brothers tried to get inside. Their flashlights could not even cut through the smoke, but it didn't matter anyway because everything inside the mail car had been completely destroyed in the blast. Now, the brothers had to decide what to do with the witnesses. They talked it over, and they decided they just had to kill them. The train's fireman, Marvin Sang, was still on the right side of the train, so Roy shot him twice, killing him. Ray then climbed up on the engine and told Hugh to kill the engineer. Hugh shot him in the head, and then it was time for the brothers to flee. By the way, that was Sidney Bates' very last day on the job. His retirement was to begin the next day. He had had a nice, long career as a train engineer. That was literally his last day as a train engineer. That's so sad. Oh, man. So... From what you just told me. It doesn't seem like Roy actually... shot anyone. The only person he killed was Elvin. No, the train's fireman, Marvin Tsang, was shot twice by Roy. So they each killed at least one person. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. So... How much money did they get away with? Well, that's the thing. They didn't get anything. Nothing. Yeah, literally zero. So, see, back then, train cars were made of wood. So let me explain. So in the early days of railroads in the United States, most train cars, including both passenger cars and freight cars, were primarily constructed from wood. They didn't actually transition to steel construction until, you know, much later. But if you look up an actual picture of this mail car, you will see that basically the outer shell of it was steel. So the mail cars were mostly made of steel, but there is a mail car from 1923 that has been restored. The picture of it lives in, I think, Toledo, Oregon. I think that's where the picture lives. I don't know where the actual car itself is. But if you look at the picture, it's completely made of wood inside. And it's absolutely gorgeous. So I highly recommend like just Google. You know, the mail car, you know, from 1923. It's absolutely beautiful. But it was all wood inside, hardwood floors and everything. So when that explosion happened, everything inside, you know, just incinerated, everything just burned. And so I mean, everything was destroyed. So no, they literally got away with absolutely nothing. The mail car was, you know, inside the tunnel. So it was already dark. Visibility, you know, was horrible. And like when the flames were out, it was just smoke and darkness. It couldn't even clear out, you know, because it was a closed space. But yeah, there was nothing. Everything was completely, like, destroyed. And they ran away empty-handed. Yeah, so anyway, as they ran away, they had these burlap bags that they had soaked in creosote. And they dragged the bags behind them as they ran so that they could get rid of their scents so dogs wouldn't be able to track them. And so it seemed like they just disappeared. So Olivia, you found some very interesting information about the initial search for the brothers, like immediately after it all happened. So what did you find? Yeah, so on OregonEncyclopedia. org, they have a long article about this crime, actually, which I found interesting. So I am going to directly quote them. It says, 'Fleeing into the woods to a well-stocked hideout deep in the dense brush, the Doatramonts waited undetected for nearly two weeks.' So that worked out for them. Armed posses searched the rugged country. U. S. Army and Forest Service fire patrol planes circled overhead, and the National Guard troops checked houses and barns along Pacific Highway to the south. The murderers seem to have vanished. My goodness. So they had planes circling. I remember reading about that. That the brothers actually noticed that there were planes up in the sky that normally there weren't. Often planes circling ahead. And that's when they realized, like, we should probably get out of here. And they had actually spotted the planes had spotted the cabin. Um, but by the time they went and located the cabin, the brothers were gone. So, um, So did they find anything they could use for forensics? In the cabin. Um, they did find some things in the cabin and then, after they noticed that the brothers were gone, they found things. Um, they found some campsites, but they were always like the brothers were always. A couple days ahead of them. But... They found other things before the brothers had even left the cabin. So remember they had camped out at those two different campsites before they even pulled off the heist. Remember I mentioned that? The brothers had actually, even though they tried to burn some things, they actually left behind a lot of evidence. Anyway, because they just, they weren't smart enough. So it gets really fascinating. This is where, I mean, it gets really exciting at this part. Okay. I'm ready. I don't know the case fully. Okay. I'm ready. Okay. I mean, like, I'm really excited. Okay, so down the tracks about a mile south, they found one of their black traveling bags that had an American Railway Express shipping tag still pasted on the side of it. Oh, come on. They also found those two abandoned camps where they'd been practicing, you know, their detonations prior to the heist and where they had burned the evidence beforehand. They also noticed at these abandoned campsites that there had been sleeping places for three people. And they found burned utensils in the ashes that were enough for three people. So three knives, three forks, three spoons, three cups. So obviously, it was a three-man job. They found another burned travel bag with a charred American Railway Express tag that still had some numbers written on it, and it was identical to the one found near the blasting machine that had been left right by the tunnel. They found the overalls that the blasting machine had been wrapped in. And they sent all of that evidence down to a Professor Heinrich in California. He was a scientist. Now, he found a lot of very interesting evidence all over those overalls. The ones that held the detonator. Yes. He found human hair on it. He found that they were worn out on the right side only. He found that there were fastidiously clipped fingernail clippings in the pockets of these overalls. And you know how, like, those overalls, um, have like a pencil-sized pocket. You know, those really skinny ones, like, for carpenters or whatever. Inside that pencil-sized pocket was this rolled-up receipt that clearly had been left in that pocket for a long time. And it had like gone through the wash a lot. So it was so faded that you could not read it. But he used some kind of like. Um, chemical or something in the lab so he could make it readable. Okay, so then he realized it's a risk. What I find interesting is that they just put their fingernail clippings in their pocket. That's gross. Hey now. Don't judge it, right? All right. I mean, you wouldn't want to just leave them on the ground. I don't know. Don't litter. Anyway. You wouldn't want to leave evidence anywhere. Okay, anyway. Better put these in here. So Professor Heinrich looks it all over. And when he's like delivering his report. I've got some quotes for you. He said, 'One of the bandits you are searching for is brown-haired, left-handed, about 26 years old, 5 feet 8 inches tall, heavyset, neat in personal habits, and a former lumber worker in Oregon or Washington. These are of the size and cut worn by a man of the physical characteristics I have suggested. There are bits of pitch from pine trees on the garment, a good bit of pitch. and in such places that it could only have got there by constant contact with trees. Only a lumberman would have such contact. Then there were worn... On the right side of the overalls, but not on the left. The man must have stood with his right side against a tree while swinging his axe to fell it. He must have stood against a great many trees to have worn it so much.' Hence, it is logical to assume that he was left-handed. What is more, I found bits of hair on the overalls. That is why I can safely say he has brown hair. As for his age, age can be told almost infallibly by the condition of a single strand of hair. By comparing... the bits of hair on the overalls with that of persons of various ages, it was simple to ascertain that man's age as approximately 26. Now for his name, he smiled. This is where he took out the rolled up bit of paper. He was able to use a chemical solution in his laboratory on that faded piece of paper to make the ink appear, and he could then read the slip of paper. And here's the quote. This is the paper I found in the overalls pocket. It is a receipt issued from the post office at Eugene, Oregon. September 14th, 1923, for a registered letter mailed by Roy Dautremont to Hugh Dautremont at Lakewood, New Mexico. Will that help you, gentlemen? Inspectors rushed to Eugene and met with the brother's father, Paul Dotremont, and he confirmed that Roy and Ray were 23. That Hugh had moved to Oregon from New Mexico, that they all worked as lumberjacks, that Roy is left-handed, has brown hair, and was in the ballpark of 5'8''. Professor Heinrich, he was pretty dang close with all of that. This case is considered to be the first time science was used to help identify a criminal. This is when forensic science was born. So the manhunt for these three went all over the place. Like, literally. Everywhere. Officials were looking in Oregon, obviously, New Mexico, Old Mexico, Canada. There were rewards for like... tons of money put up for their capture, $15, 000, which in 20, $25 would be almost $280, 000. In May of 1924, Five months after the train robbery, a body was found in the Rogue River. The father of the brothers, so Paul de Tremont, he was convinced that it was the body of Hugh. And he insisted that all three of them must be dead. That had to have been so hard for him. So on May 7th, Sheriff Terrell and Coroner Pearl authorize a search party to start dragging the Rogue River to try to locate the bodies of Roy and Ray with Paul Dautremont. However, there was some doubt because several people who had inspected the body said that the eyes were brown, whereas Hugh's eyes were blue. Well, it was not... Hugh's body. He was not dead. And neither were Ray nor Roy. Did they ever find out who it was? I don't know. That is something we should look up. Maybe that will be episode three. So two years later, they were still not giving up the search. The Salt Star newspaper in Canada reported on July 12th of... 1926, that there were three Americans being held in Quebec who had given their names as Benjamin Landsman, Emmanuel, Harrison, and John. Joseph Herenson. They were being held until authorities in Eugene, Oregon could get up there and officially identify them as being, or not being, the Dautremont brothers. But they were not Ray, Roy, or Hugh. Postal Inspector C. B. Welter said later that he made a three-month-long trip to Central America to hunt for the Dautremont brothers, and that there were scores of others engaged in the manhunt for three years, searching all over the world. Oh, wow. They were looking everywhere for these guys. So, Olivia. Where exactly were the brothers? So I don't know a lot of details about their path of travel, but I do know that Hugh had separated from the twins somewhere near Klamath River in Oregon. And he never saw them again after that. He eventually made his way to Washington state and joined the US Army under an assumed name. He had chosen the name James Price and was eventually serving in the Philippines. One of his comrades that he served with in the Philippines had come back to the States and had seen a wanted poster with his picture on it and turned him in. Oof. Mm. Here's commanding officer, who called the authorities, and they told him. Just to let him continue serving in the army for a while until they could send someone to officially identify him. They did look at his paperwork though. They saw that he listed Houston, Texas as his birthplace, but there were no records for a James Price being born in Houston on that date. His emergency contact also didn't seem to exist in Emmett, Arkansas, so they were pretty sure that he wasn't who he said he was. When he was questioned, he readily admitted that he was Hugh Dautremont. He did not have any idea where his brothers were though. The twins had stayed together. They got a little more creative with their fake names. They chose the last name Goodwin. Because it sounded like a pun. Like, 'Good one.' Um, that was their little joke. They wanted the most sissy, quotation, sissy names they could find. So Ray chose Elmer Goodwin and Roy went with Clarence Goodwin. A friend of Elmer and Clarence happened to read this. story of the great train robbery in the paper and thought that the D'Autremont brothers looked like his good friends Elmer and Clarence Goodwin. He talked it over with his wife, and they talked to the police. The twins were then arrested where they lived in Stalbanville, Ohio. Yeah, they had split up and were not caught for four years. They were finally arrested in May of 1927. Now, Ray had actually gotten married and had two sons. His wife had no idea that he was anyone other than Elmer Goodwin, and somehow he had even convinced her to name their second son Ray. His wife, Hazel, was holding baby Ray in her arms when he was led out of the Ohio courtroom and extradited back to Oregon. And I feel so bad for Hazel. So the twins actually arrived back in Jacksonville, Oregon on the very day that Hugh was sentenced for his role in the quadruple murders. All three of them were convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison. None of them received the death penalty in exchange for their full confessions, which were published in the Medford Mail Tribune on Friday, June 24, 1927. Now, Hugh, the youngest brother, created his own magazine publication. Is that right, Olivia? Yeah, I believe it was called, like, The Shadow or something along that. Yeah, so he created that while he was in prison. He was paroled in 1958 and moved to California. Then, just three months after getting out of prison, he was diagnosed with stomach cancer and he died a year later. Roy was diagnosed with schizophrenia while in prison and was transferred to the Oregon State Hospital. He was given a lobotomy and no longer able to care for himself after that. He was eventually paroled to a Salem nursing home with 24-7 care, and he died in 1983. Ray was paroled in 1961, got a job as a janitor at the University of Oregon. He considered himself a bit of a celebrity, and he wound up dying in a nursing home in 1984. All three brothers are buried beside their mother in a Salem cemetery. So Monica, our true crime expert, are there any clues as to why these brothers might have gone down a path of crime? Oh my goodness, do not get me started. I'm going to. There is so much, so much to this case. Let me buckle in. Oh, buckle up, buttercup. All right. So I was so excited when I found the confessions. Oh, my gosh. Okay. So. Tell me more. Oh my gosh. Okay. So, um, The confessions were amazing because both Ray and Hugh, in their confessions, they were so matter-of-fact and just like. Here's what I did. I did this thing. I did this crime, the end. And it was just like, maybe like a page, page and a half, right? But Roy. Roy was like. Strap in, I'm telling you a story. And he was like, Here's when I was born, and here are all the things that happened. And he was like, not only to me, but to my brother. Wait till you hear what they did to my brother. And Roy's confession was 40 pages. And he sat there. Because remember, they took the death penalty off the table. In exchange for their confessions. And Roy sat there all night long and they typed his confession and it was 40 pages. And then he only slept for two hours because he was up all night giving them this entire story. And so... In that news article, they didn't even publish the entire thing. They just had to like kind of summarize because that would have been in like 40 pages. would have been crazy. So it was amazing. So, um, Anyway, so I have some really amazing stuff to share with you guys. It's so, so amazing. So the first quote that we have from Roy's confession is this. In my best Roy voice. I'm just kidding. We found ourselves in the gold mining camps of Colorado about 1905 and 1906. Those were wild and lawless days. If a boy was good, he was looked upon as a sissy. The French are an emotional race and our teachers ruled us with an iron rod. We are creatures of emotion, quick to love and quick to anger. We were ruined. The same as whipping ruins a racehorse or a hybrid dog by whipping. When we left Colorado, Dad was in pretty good circumstances and he moved away to a better country where we children could have better advantages in a moral way. He sacrificed everything he had when he left. He wanted to raise up his boys to be good men. New Mexico was his land of promise. Dad was always a good man. So, Olivia, I looked this up, and there was a French gold mining community called French Gulch that had been established by a gold miner called French Pete. I'm sure it was a nickname. It was probably like Pete Le Pew. Anyway, French Pete. He had struck it rich in the area in 1860. So I don't know that this is for sure the mining camp where the d'Autremonts were located. Because there were several, you know, gold mining camps in Colorado back in the early 1900s. But, I mean, it's possible. But Roy mentions there were French teachers at the camp, so I would assume— assume that the camp he's referring to would have had a fairly sizable French community for the children there to have had actual French teachers on site. But it's just a guess. I don't know. Yeah. So it sounds like he's blaming more the teachers than his actual family. When Roy says that his dad sacrificed everything when he left, that says to me that he left the gold mining camp with nothing. He took a gamble when they moved to New York. Mexico, hoping that life would be better. So his confession goes on to say that he entered the stock business and a dry season caused a heavy loss. And I assume by... He meant livestock and that many of them died because he goes on to say that there was also trouble with neighbors over grazing rights. And then there's a quote which says, 'Dad became prejudiced against the country and wanted to leave, but mother seemed to want to stay. And I guess that was the beginning of what caused the separation of dad and mother.' The newspaper article doesn't go into detail, but does state that Roy wrote two pages talking about Ray being arrested for criminal syndicalism and his treatment and punishment at the Monroe, Washington prison. So here's a quote. Ray was a good boy, and had been a good boy all the time, but he was not scrub stock, and when they abused him, he did not lay down like a yellow scrub dog and whine. The only thing he knew was to return evil for evil. The newspaper article then says that Roy's next 500 words, so about a whole page, went on to describe the hatred that it left in Ray's heart. So, Olivia, please remind me how tall Roy and Ray were. So on Ray's draft registration card into the military. Um, it doesn't have his exact height, but it says small. Bills? But I did find out how tall they actually were. They were 5'8 and 135 pounds. Okay. And then we know that... Well, remind us, how old was Ray when he was arrested and put in prison for that year? He was 19 and he got out when he was 20. All right, so I'm sure you know what kind of abuse my mind is going to when Roy writes about Ray having been abused in the Washington State Prison. Right? Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And how it left hatred in Ray's heart. So Ray would have made the perfect victim in that prison. So here he was, a nonviolent criminal. He's 19 years old. He's 5 '8", only 135 pounds. He's a baby-faced good boy. Right. And I mean, he was a handsome looking fella. You guys can Google the pictures. I mean, actually, in an article I read, it talked about how all three brothers were very vain and into their looks and they would dress up in suits and go get their pictures taken. They were pretty boys. Don't be pretty, boys. Yeah. So, I mean, you put him in there. He is not... He is not a violent boy. You know what I mean? He's not. And you put him in there with a bunch of hardened criminals in the state prison. What's going to happen to him? He's 135 pounds. What's going to happen to this 19-year-old pretty boy? My heart is broken for Ray right now, okay? He's 19. Anyway, so Roy. He just wanted to be a wobbly. He just wanted to wobble. Come on. Wibbles wobble, but they don't fall down. Wobblies never say 'die!' Aw, Ray. Anyway, so Roy, his twin brother, and twins have a special bond, you guys. Roy was aware of what was happening to his twin brother. Here is a quote from his confession. I went to Judge Holden, the prosecutor at Vancouver, Washington, and I told him Ray was a victim of... circumstance, and if they would give him his liberty, I would stand responsible for his future. I begged for his liberty. Judge Holden turned a deaf ear to my pleading. And sent my brother to a school of crime. Now you can see the bitterness and hatred that is entering into his heart. It is also entering mine. I stayed with dad when there was a mother back in New Mexico needing more help. So on sounds like a softie. Huh? Roy? Roy sounds like just like a teddy bear wanting to protect everyone. He loves his brother. He does. He's so worried about his brother. Seriously. You know? So honestly, I see a lot of risk factors here. I see that there was abuse in their childhoods at the gold mining camps in Colorado. I see poverty. I see struggle. I see hardship throughout their childhoods. I see a dysfunctional family. I see a broken family. I see an absent parent because the parents are in two different states. By default, one of them is not going to be there. I see they came from low socioeconomic status. I see they also felt like they were constantly being treated as less than by society or the government. Or whatever. Then we have whatever abuse was happening to Ray in the prison, as well as those feelings of helplessness that Roy felt because he couldn't do anything to protect his twin. So there are risk factors on the individual levels for each of them. The community levels for each of them, and even the biological levels when you take into account the mental illness within Roy. And we don't even know what other biological factors may have been going on for the other brothers. Then the feelings of helplessness that the brothers felt when they saw their parents both struggling financially and not having the means to help their families. Now, Ray was not schizophrenic. But there are indications that he also developed some mental illness, and who wouldn't, you know, after everything he had been through. Can you imagine being the non-violent, tiny 19-year-old who got arrested for being part of a union, right? And being put into prison with hardened and violent criminals, who then preyed upon you for almost a whole year. That's going to mess with you. I don't care who you are. And I'm just going to assume that he was victimized, whether it was sexual or not. And I'm going to tell you that it does. It will leave a mark on your psyche. Go ahead and tell me I'm wrong. We can have a debate. Send me an email. It's fine. But I'm telling you now, with my expert opinion, that this will leave a mark on your psyche. Roy said, in one court hearing, while pointing to Ray, they put that poor boy in the Monroe Reformatory, claiming he was an agitator. There, they treated him shamefully and he came out warped. Royce said that to the judge in the courtroom. While on the train back to Oregon, when the twins had been extradited from Ohio, they told the lawmen that immediately following the heist, Ray was suicidal. He wanted to commit suicide, and it took both Roy and Hugh to talk him out of it. Ray couldn't live with what he had done, and the brothers had to plead with him not to end his life. And, also speaking of Roy's mental illness, that was undiagnosed at the time of the crime, when the twins were 23 years old. So, what... role did that play in all of this? Like how did that influence his thoughts and opinions when he was chiming in and influencing his brothers and their plans? Because, like, remember when they were considering robbing the bank in Florence, Oregon? They mentioned it to their older brother Vern, who was not mentally ill, and his reaction was to say, 'Hey guys, that's not a good idea, right?' His sane mind and opinions influenced them away from that idea. Maybe if Roy had not been mentally ill, his opinions would have influenced the situation in the same way. Hmm, hmm. So, I mean, how did his mental illness influence this situation? Right. I mean, so there's just so much. Another thing. I must mention here, and I also need to give a shout out to my former college student, Ricky. She's the reason why I'm throwing this in here. I was talking to her about it. Something we call the risk effect. All right, when you are classifying criminals, when they are going to be incarcerated, you need to assess their risk level and then you house them and you treat them accordingly. So what exactly is a risk level? Okay. So their risk level is basically their risk of reoffending as well as their risk of being violent or causing trouble while they're in prison. So let's look at Ray when he was arrested at the age of 19 for being part of... the wobblies. Okay. He's nonviolent, right? He's not out there murdering people. You know, he's not; he hasn't been out there stabbing folks left and right. He's not sexually assaulting anyone. He's not a chronic offender by any means. So we can guess that he was probably a low-risk offender. Now, what we have found through our studies is that if you put a low-risk offender in prison with, or even in a treatment program with, medium to high-risk offenders, the low-risk offenders will actually become higher risk offenders. They will get worse and they will be more likely to commit more crimes in the future. Do you want to guess why that is? I want to say... old-school crime schools. They were basically learning. How do we get away with Christ? Yes! Yes, and it's so funny because Roy called it, you know, the crime school, basically. Yes, they are mixing them in with... Criminals with bad guys with bad ideas, you know, and also they're probably a little bit upset that they're like, you're treating me— like a criminal. I'm not that bad. I made a mistake, and you know, and they get angry about it. They want to stick it to the man now, just like what happened with Ray. So they get disgruntled. They get upset. And that is what we call the risk effect. And that is how it played out with Ray. In there and he met criminals, and he, you know, they gave him names and addresses for the Italian mafia members in Chicago. Do you think? Do you think he would have sought out Al Capone had he not been thrown into a prison with hardened criminals for a year because he was a wobbly? You know what I mean? Yeah. So yeah, that's, that was the risk effect. That's what happened. So yeah, when you ask what led to this crime happening, how did they go down this path? Well, there was a lot. There was a lot going on here. Oh, wow. Ah. Yeah. It's like... I know it's been called the last... Great train robbery. But it doesn't seem that great! They did a terrible job. Well, yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, from the get-go, they— We're kind of just... I don't want to say stupid, but they were just like... Ahhhh! We need a getaway car. Never mind. Take it back to dad's. Yeah. Pressure to a cow! Oh. I do have a tidbit. Sweet, sweet hazel. Did get remarried. And had more children. Okay. And Hazel is the one who was married to Ray. Yes. Slash. What was his name? Elmer. Elmer. Yeah. Elmer Goodwin. Yes. She's buried in Ohio. Next to her deceased husband, who went by Dude. No. Thank you. But another sad tidbit, the baby that she had with Ray that was named Ray. He did grow up and then commit suicide. Yes, that is unfortunate. Mm-hmm. Well, Shout out to newspapers. com. Heck yeah. OregonEncyclopedia. org, Ancestry. com, FamilySearch. com. Follow us on our socials. Forgotten felonies. On Instagram, there is an underscore between the two words. All right, cool. This was fun! That was interesting. I didn't actually know all of that. Yeah, I didn't either. Till I... Took a deep dive into that. All my texts to you and I'm like, 'Oh my gosh, there's so much more.' This changes everything. I do want to go to the Oregon Historical Museum and get the 40 pages. Before I pitch Confession, because I do have it there. Look at it. Read it. Can you copy it? I love you. So how is this new information going to change the way you teach this case? Well, first of all, the bank wasn't robbed in front of them. It didn't happen. That's cool. Um... Well, I mean... I don't like giving false information. Are you going to add anything in, though, about the... the confessions? Well, yeah. I mean, all of the risk factors, all of the everything. Everything else that happened to him in prison. Like everything. Yeah, it just changes everything. It's really interesting how in the present. Thank you. Like, affected him so much, but then his brother, you know, he just went with it, and things kind of got there. Thank you. It seems like, I mean, Roy was more comfortable about, like, getting justice for people. Thank you. Thanks for watching! You should read that article.